Anorexia and Cannibal! The Musical

Welcome to the very first episode of Art That Saved My Life! We are joined today by the always endearing Austin C. Pruett. Austin and Justin discuss their instantaneous connection as roommates in college, Justin's history with mental illness and relapse during their Freshman year, and how the film Cannibal! The Musical offered Justin much needed levity, resonance, and catharsis.

“Cannibal! The Musical tells the true story of the only person convicted of cannibalism in America - Alfred Packer. The sole survivor of an ill-fated trip to the Colorado Territory, he recounts his side of the harrowing tale to news reporter Polly Prye as he awaits his execution.”


Check out Austin's podcast, Film With Family
https://filmwithfamily.buzzsprout.com/

If you are struggling with mental illness, you are not alone. Below are a few resources for your support:

National Alliance on Mental Illness
https://www.nami.org/

National Eating Disorders Association
https://www.nationaleatingdisorders.org/

Suicide and Crisis Hotline
https://988lifeline.org/

Transcript

00;00;18;23 - 00;00;45;04
Speaker 2
Hello, and thank you for joining me. I am. I'm so grateful for your time and your attention. I know how valuable those commodities are these days. My name is Justin Fink I'm a licensed professional counselor as well. I'm a musician. An artist, if you will. I, I love to write. I want to film school, I love comedy, I've done improv.

00;00;45;06 - 00;01;01;08
Speaker 2
Creating is just in my blood. So, of course, I wanted to make a podcast that really honors this gift that art is. Without a doubt. There's no way I would be here without art. I know.

00;01;01;08 - 00;01;02;03
Speaker 3
How much.

00;01;02;09 - 00;01;33;19
Speaker 2
Music, movies, paintings, poetry, etc. is is just medicine for people. Another big reason I started this podcast is because I really want to get to know people. There are so many people in my life who I can consider myself close to, yet their history, the things that they really struggled with are a complete mystery to me. I've found that it's through these struggles that we really find meaning in life, and we really get clear on what our values are.

00;01;33;19 - 00;02;01;18
Speaker 2
And art is like the, life raft that it keeps us from drowning. We had a death in my family earlier this year. I lost my little sister, Ava. She was in a car crash. She was only 25 years old. And the thing that breaks my heart the most is not really being there more for her. I know conceptually that it's just life, and we were just where we were on our paths.

00;02;01;18 - 00;02;29;14
Speaker 2
And I think people in general make it a habit to hide their pain from each other. And we're really good from even hiding it from ourselves. So I wanted to create this show to not only celebrate the art that helps us thrive, but also to show the world that we have nothing to hide. It's actually in exposing our hearts to each other that we can finally get that intimacy, closeness that we're longing for as well.

00;02;29;14 - 00;02;52;06
Speaker 2
Get the support and compassion and empathy that is really necessary to make it through life. So coming up is a conversation I had with my best friend, Austin C Pruitt. Austin is a beautiful soul, one of the funniest people I know, just naturally curious and compassionate. And we were randomly assigned as roommates. My freshman year of college.

00;02;52;06 - 00;03;22;02
Speaker 2
And it was around this time that I had a really bad relapse with my anorexia. I lost a lot of weight. My family was worried. I it was it was not a pretty situation. However, it was also around that time I discovered Cannibal the Musical, which is such a delightfully weird movie. I really hope everyone is inspired to watch it after listening to this, and it was such a joy to discuss what happened with my good friend Austin.

00;03;22;02 - 00;03;29;19
Speaker 2
This happened about 19 years ago, almost to the day, and I don't think we ever discussed it since then.

00;03;29;21 - 00;03;30;11
Speaker 1
And.

00;03;30;12 - 00;03;56;16
Speaker 2
I think it was maybe always kind of hanging over us. So it was really good to clear the air, and it was really good for our friendship. It was great for me to get clarity on the whole situation, to forgive and, and really helped me close the chapter on that. So please enjoy. If you're struggling with with anything similar to what I mentioned in this podcast, please do not feel ashamed to get help.

00;03;56;16 - 00;04;14;15
Speaker 2
To be in crisis is nothing shameful. It just means that whatever is going on in your mind just isn't working for you anymore. We need to have spaces where we can admit I don't know what I'm doing, and that's okay, because once we admit that, then we can figure out who we are and where we want to go forward.

00;04;14;19 - 00;04;22;14
Speaker 2
So with that said, thank you again for listening and I look forward to being on this journey with you.

00;04;22;16 - 00;04;41;14
Speaker 1
It's a long ways for us to go, but if we don't try, we'll never know. Stay up to missed takes. It all goes higher. There's nothing we can't do if we name. For those of you.

00;04;41;17 - 00;04;59;15
Speaker 2
So let's talk just a little bit about why we love this movie, you know? Yes. I'm just it's. No, you know, obviously this is a show about personal contact and what it means. But before we get into that, I just want to talk about, you know what? Just surface level makes this movie so lovable.

00;04;59;18 - 00;05;00;22
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00;05;00;25 - 00;05;17;10
Speaker 2
When I was first of all, and we we we texted this. But when I was watching last night, I really felt like I was cheating on you, buddy, but not watching it with you. I don't know if there's ever been another time that I've watch this movie without you present. Or at least. Wow.

00;05;17;13 - 00;05;25;20
Speaker 4
Yeah, I didn't, I. I cannot separate this film without thinking of you and I sitting in the DePaul dormitory.

00;05;25;26 - 00;05;26;07
Speaker 2
Yes.

00;05;26;07 - 00;05;28;02
Speaker 4
And, Monroe.

00;05;28;04 - 00;05;29;16
Speaker 3


00;05;29;19 - 00;05;42;15
Speaker 4
Passing the time is fresh. 18 year olds, fresh adults, passing the time, getting stoned and drinking. Carlo Rossi watching cannibal the musical.

00;05;42;21 - 00;05;43;19
Speaker 2
That's right. What?

00;05;43;20 - 00;05;52;12
Speaker 4
That's right. And I don't even know how we came across it. I was trying to think, like, maybe we rented it from the DePaul library.

00;05;52;18 - 00;06;11;01
Speaker 2
Yes. Or I have a distinct memory of being at the, I forget what they called the dining hall, but we were all getting our food. And, yes, you guys had checked it out the night before, and you guys were telling me about it? Oh, yeah. Yeah.

00;06;11;08 - 00;06;12;14
Speaker 4
So I had already seen it.

00;06;12;20 - 00;06;17;18
Speaker 2
You had seen it? Yeah. I think you watched it with Mike Lee and Blake and Justin.

00;06;17;20 - 00;06;19;06
Speaker 3
Oh, yeah. Okay.

00;06;19;08 - 00;06;41;02
Speaker 2
These are all people who, lived around us at the time. But, you know, much like when I was on your podcast and we talked about the movie scream, how, you know, scream became one of my most beloved movies, actually, this one. And it was actually my sister, my cousin. They saw it like the day before. And I came home one day and they were like, you got to see this movie.

00;06;41;02 - 00;06;45;13
Speaker 2
So it's kind of that wow, like kind of like, get ready, you know?

00;06;45;16 - 00;06;46;11
Speaker 4
Yeah, yeah.

00;06;46;15 - 00;06;52;29
Speaker 2
It comes like, a piece of art that that's going to be integral to your big,

00;06;53;01 - 00;07;05;21
Speaker 4
Yeah, it's a classic. And, I have met people throughout my life that say that they watch this movie, like, every Christmas with their family. Like, it's like kind of a cult classic. Now.

00;07;05;26 - 00;07;29;26
Speaker 2
It totally is. Yeah. I remember I was on I was doing wilderness, Outward Bound. I was a guide, and there's another guide. And it was so funny because we were kind of click and kind of connected, you know, like, you know, what are you into? He was into rugby. I was like, I can relate to that. And then and then at some point I don't know how I think one of us said, but uncle, which is like, the made up like catchphrase of this movie.

00;07;30;04 - 00;07;35;03
Speaker 2
And then we looked. Then we looked at each other as like, and it was a musical. And then like.

00;07;35;06 - 00;07;35;11
Speaker 3
We.

00;07;35;11 - 00;07;41;17
Speaker 2
Spent the next two days just like quoting the movie and singing the songs, and, it does like unite.

00;07;41;18 - 00;08;01;06
Speaker 1
I've never had much in the way of friends or family. My horse is the only pal I've ever known. I'd like to build a ranch in the Rocky Mountain air. A home for us. That's all I'm asking for.

00;08;01;08 - 00;08;07;07
Speaker 3
That's all we're asking for. That's all we're asking for is. We're tired of being sick. Which.

00;08;07;10 - 00;08;26;22
Speaker 2
You know, because. And I think that's the joy of of loving like a cult film is that you find these people out in the wild and it's like, I am it's, it's, it's it's not a good litmus test, but it really does tell me immediately I can trust this person, you know?

00;08;26;22 - 00;08;27;16
Speaker 3
Yeah, it's.

00;08;27;19 - 00;08;51;06
Speaker 4
It's a certain absurd humor that and, you know, there's some gross out stuff in the beginning that like, if you can make it past that, like you've kind of crossed a barrier and then like, you know, all of the all the jokes are very particular. So if you can't, if you stomach that and you like and you like it.

00;08;51;13 - 00;08;52;03
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;08;52;06 - 00;08;53;28
Speaker 4
Then you're one of us.

00;08;54;05 - 00;08;55;25
Speaker 3
Yeah. That's right.

00;08;56;02 - 00;09;19;23
Speaker 1
All for us. Nothing like the drive. And like I'm about to say like, make love to women because I've got to just. I'm wondering. Balls of thunder I can break right through a wall. I love the sound of metal slapping on an animal's head. Sometimes I discover, sometimes they whimper. But they always end up this horrible way.

00;09;19;24 - 00;09;22;09
Speaker 3
Yeah. That's right.

00;09;22;11 - 00;09;35;24
Speaker 2
So yeah, for for anyone listening who's uninitiated, which I, I, I implore you to initiate yourself, is that this is a film made by Trey Parker and Matt Stone while they were in film school.

00;09;35;27 - 00;09;36;17
Speaker 3
Yeah, they actually of.

00;09;36;17 - 00;09;37;13
Speaker 4
South Park fame.

00;09;37;21 - 00;10;03;28
Speaker 2
That's right, that's right. They met in class at the University of Colorado Boulder, I believe, and they were assigned a project together, and then they just started making, like, short videos together, much like me and you, Austin, have done over the years. Yeah. And yeah, so the story goes, is that Trey Parker was actually engaged, at the age of 22, which was around when he made this.

00;10;03;28 - 00;10;12;23
Speaker 2
And, his fiancee at the time, I don't know if he if she cheated on him or just left him, but but he was heartbroken, and,

00;10;12;25 - 00;10;16;26
Speaker 4
He left him for an acapella singer, but he says.

00;10;16;26 - 00;10;18;27
Speaker 3
Yeah, that's amazing. And her.

00;10;18;27 - 00;10;20;02
Speaker 4
Name was Leann.

00;10;20;02 - 00;10;22;06
Speaker 2
Right? Right. Yeah. Yeah. So.

00;10;22;06 - 00;10;23;16
Speaker 4
So he's the name of the horse?

00;10;23;16 - 00;10;24;14
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00;10;24;17 - 00;10;26;25
Speaker 2
Of course, of course.

00;10;26;28 - 00;10;33;08
Speaker 1
Do you guys think it's true that she's a trapper horse? Oh, a horse is a horse. Of course, of course.

00;10;33;11 - 00;10;34;28
Speaker 3


00;10;35;01 - 00;10;57;08
Speaker 2
But but, Yeah. So. So he was he was so fueled by his heartbreak and kind of like, spite that he threw all of his energy into making because at first it was just a, like a fake movie trailer. They they were like, oh, wouldn't it be funny if there was a movie about Alferd Packer? And it's like, who could possibly make a whole movie?

00;10;57;15 - 00;11;20;05
Speaker 2
Let's just make a trailer. And then they made the trailer and I think that happened. Who knows the timeline. But he was like so convicted after getting his heart broken. He was like, we, you know, I, I heard in the interview I listen to last night, he's like, I just his words were I just figured this would be the last thing I would ever be able to make, you know, like like he thought this was going to be a swan song.

00;11;20;05 - 00;11;46;03
Speaker 2
So he threw everything into it. So much, so, so much so that he got kicked out of school. You know, his his grades suffered because he was so focused. But, what happened was that they made the trailer and then the trailer became like, really beloved amongst like, faculty and students, so much to the point where the chair of the film school was like, I will help you make money.

00;11;46;03 - 00;11;48;06
Speaker 2
Let's make this a feature film. Yeah.

00;11;48;06 - 00;11;49;06
Speaker 3
Wow.

00;11;49;09 - 00;12;21;21
Speaker 2
So, and that's something that's really beautiful about this movie is like, it had a lot of push in power from the community, you know, to get it made. And, you know, Trey Parker's dad is in it. There's teachers from the school in it. There's other students, you know, it's it's yeah. So right off the bat, I think that's like something that maybe just psychically really resonated with me because I'm all about, you know, creativity and, and, just going for it, you know, like, like often from trauma, you know, make your own damn movie.

00;12;21;21 - 00;12;30;05
Speaker 2
Like, why, why wait, you know, don't go on, don't go to Hollywood and hope to get a deal. Like, just make it make it happen. Right?

00;12;30;07 - 00;12;30;29
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00;12;31;01 - 00;12;59;21
Speaker 4
And I it's very it's very resonant. I think with the theme of this show is that, you know, Trey Parker was heartbroken and like, a very sad, like, kind of hopeless state, right. And used this movie that he was making as, like an outlet to kind of channel those emotions and do something productive that, you know, made the movie.

00;12;59;23 - 00;13;03;14
Speaker 3
Here and now. I don't know why, but she.

00;13;03;16 - 00;13;35;05
Unknown
She's gone and all I can do is try to carry. Oh your eyes, your smile made my little love blue. While the sky was a lot more blue. When I was on top. You.

00;13;35;07 - 00;13;40;15
Speaker 3
Know. Exactly.

00;13;40;18 - 00;14;06;21
Speaker 2
No. Absolutely. And I think when anything is made with, like, that, much like, earnest heart to it for me, my like bandwidth for forgiveness, let's say, is is so much wider, you know, because it's it's not in no means and no one would ever argue against this. Is it a perfect film? It's it's like really you know, the film quality's not great.

00;14;06;21 - 00;14;31;28
Speaker 2
There's it's clear that most of these people are not actors. You know, there's there's really poorly delivered lines. There's like really awkward, like Neil Breen style. Just like, but it's like that's something I love about it too, is how homemade it feels. You know, it feels. Yeah. Like like instead of getting like a nice pie from Whole Foods, like your grandma makes you, it's kind of gnarly but delicious, you know?

00;14;32;01 - 00;14;36;18
Speaker 2
And it's. Yeah, it's gonna feel it feels way better, you know, in your heart eating it.

00;14;36;21 - 00;14;38;23
Speaker 3
Yeah. Yeah.

00;14;38;26 - 00;14;51;06
Speaker 4
But in terms of, like, the music and the writing and the jokes, you see a lot of South Park in there. Even though Trey Parker does the Cartman voice at some point.

00;14;51;09 - 00;14;51;21
Speaker 3
Which I think.

00;14;51;21 - 00;15;03;03
Speaker 4
Is the first appearance of Cartman's voice in anything, and, you know, a lot of their style is is baked in there. Well, she.

00;15;03;03 - 00;15;32;12
Speaker 1
Certainly is, but don't go hoarse. Oh, hello. Could you tell us how much further it is to Provo? We have to get some supplies for a big trip to the Rocky Mountains. You'll never come back again. It's got a curse on it. Provo, the Rocky Mountains. I gotta warn you, you're. Dude. Dude, dude, you're doomed to.

00;15;32;14 - 00;15;42;17
Speaker 1
Turn back while you still can. You're doomed. You're all doom.

00;15;42;19 - 00;15;46;23
Speaker 4
Thank you. But. But the music especially is fantastic.

00;15;46;24 - 00;15;47;28
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00;15;48;00 - 00;15;58;02
Speaker 4
And, it's just. It's just still holds up. Is a very funny movie and amazing that, like, this was their first kind of effort.

00;15;58;05 - 00;16;24;20
Speaker 2
Totally. Yeah. So, yeah, Trey Parker, he went to school for music first. He thought that was going to be his thing. He thought he was going to be, like, film composer or like, music, you know, and that shows just how much he loves music. And obviously he, he loves musicals, too, you know, and these songs really do mimic, you know, like the, really, you know, spirited Oklahoma.

00;16;24;20 - 00;16;25;00
Speaker 4
Yeah.

00;16;25;00 - 00;16;27;01
Speaker 3
It was his biggest influence.

00;16;27;01 - 00;16;27;22
Speaker 4
For this one. Yeah.

00;16;28;00 - 00;16;51;15
Speaker 2
And I think, you know, and that touches upon something that I have always loved. And I know that you love too, is like, really inappropriate joy in the face of, of just, like, something so innately dark, you know? Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, that for me always tickles me like Evil Dead two was my favorite movie in high school for that same reason.

00;16;51;16 - 00;16;57;25
Speaker 2
Right? Like the mixture of the macabre and the zany, you know, the comical, the goofiness. Right?

00;16;57;28 - 00;16;59;12
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00;16;59;15 - 00;17;03;09
Speaker 4
It's all right there in the title cannibal, the musical.

00;17;03;12 - 00;17;04;25
Speaker 3
That's like two.

00;17;04;25 - 00;17;06;04
Speaker 4
Sides of a different coin. Yeah.

00;17;06;05 - 00;17;13;19
Speaker 2
It's, So yeah, the movie is a fun ride. I thoroughly enjoyed rewatching it last night.

00;17;13;21 - 00;17;14;13
Speaker 3
Well.

00;17;14;15 - 00;17;23;24
Speaker 4
Before we get too far into the movie, I guess I. I want to back up a little bit. I don't mean to take over your questioning duties as host.

00;17;23;26 - 00;17;25;06
Speaker 2
No, no.

00;17;25;08 - 00;17;27;00
Speaker 3
But.

00;17;27;03 - 00;17;34;29
Speaker 4
So you and I met in 2005. We were paired together in the dorms at DePaul University in Chicago.

00;17;35;02 - 00;17;35;17
Speaker 2
Completely.

00;17;35;22 - 00;18;20;05
Speaker 4
And totally random and we had a lot in common right off the bat. We both love Mars Volta. We both, like, had, like, played guitar, had a, you know, good sense of humor. And so we got along really well. But you were going through some issues at that time in your life and, I guess I feel like this is an interesting format because, like, I don't think I've ever, like, asked you directly or, like, got on the record, like what really happened that semester at DePaul, you know, like, yeah, I mean, I know, I know what the result was.

00;18;20;05 - 00;18;34;24
Speaker 4
I know what happened. Right? But I guess I don't really know how your mental state was like basically, from the moment we met to the moment that you dropped out, which was like basically a span of like 3 or 4 months.

00;18;34;25 - 00;18;35;18
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00;18;35;20 - 00;18;50;13
Speaker 4
Because, I mean, we weren't we I don't think we were close enough at that time to like, really share, like intimate emotional details about like it was just like one day we were like, I dropped out. I'm like, I'm going through some stuff. Like, I can't do this.

00;18;50;14 - 00;19;10;28
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. No, I really appreciate you saying that. And yeah, that's like, selfishly, that's what I was most looking forward to. And recording this episode is kind of, yeah. Cluing you in and getting closure and, and, and hearing your perspective as well, you know, it's, it's.

00;19;11;02 - 00;19;11;13
Speaker 3


00;19;11;17 - 00;19;16;20
Speaker 2
You know, Rashomon. Right? Like, everyone has a different, different take on what happened, right?

00;19;16;25 - 00;19;17;08
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00;19;17;10 - 00;19;17;16
Speaker 4
Yeah.

00;19;17;16 - 00;19;34;00
Speaker 2
But yeah, but it is so funny how, like you just said, you know, we we had just met basically, we only known each other for a few months, and it's like, in my memory, it's like. Like when you said that, I was like, oh, that's right. Like we just met, you know, like like that. Yeah. Like our connection was so strong, you know?

00;19;34;00 - 00;19;36;18
Speaker 2
Yeah. That it's good to remember that.

00;19;36;25 - 00;19;46;10
Speaker 4
Yeah. I mean, we we basically had one phone call. I wrote you a really insane letter about how I love going as fast.

00;19;46;12 - 00;19;46;18
Speaker 3
You know.

00;19;46;22 - 00;19;47;29
Speaker 2
That's right.

00;19;48;02 - 00;20;11;03
Speaker 4
And but, I mean, yeah, I mean, like, from the very first day we hung out, I mean, I had, like, a long term girlfriend at that time, and, like, we were all very close to me. You and Joanna. And I, I just remember one of the first days we were hanging out, we were like walking from the dorm to get some lunch or something and I don't even remember what it was.

00;20;11;03 - 00;20;29;28
Speaker 4
But you crack some joke that was like so fucking witty. And I was like, I don't know this guy. Like it was just like immediately. Like I was just like, we are going to be such good friends. And it was just such fate for us to be paired together. And, yeah, I mean, we just had so much in common.

00;20;29;28 - 00;20;36;16
Speaker 4
Like, I, I remember us like, watching the visual, like the Windows Media Visualizer or listening to.

00;20;36;16 - 00;20;38;21
Speaker 3
Like, LED Zeppelin.

00;20;38;24 - 00;20;45;03
Speaker 4
And there's like one video that we, like, totally lost. Where do you remember where you're like, oh.

00;20;45;05 - 00;20;45;26
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00;20;45;29 - 00;20;50;13
Speaker 4
I like when I think of the dorms, I think of that video.

00;20;50;14 - 00;20;51;22
Speaker 2
Yeah. You know.

00;20;51;22 - 00;20;53;09
Speaker 4
Listeners will have no fucking idea.

00;20;53;09 - 00;20;56;04
Speaker 3
What you're talking about. But it was just.

00;20;56;06 - 00;21;06;16
Speaker 4
Basically like you were like creating a story around like, yeah, one song that was about like an old prospector finding gold or something.

00;21;06;18 - 00;21;08;12
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah. And like.

00;21;08;12 - 00;21;20;17
Speaker 4
I mean, this was I mean, almost to the day, Justin, because I think that the semester started first week of September. Yeah. I mean, we're talking 19 years ago.

00;21;20;19 - 00;21;21;11
Speaker 3


00;21;21;13 - 00;21;24;20
Speaker 4
It's like more than half our lives basically.

00;21;24;20 - 00;21;25;00
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00;21;25;08 - 00;21;26;12
Speaker 2
It's incredible.

00;21;26;15 - 00;21;29;29
Speaker 4
Yeah. It's crazy to think that next year will be the 20th anniversary of us.

00;21;29;29 - 00;21;30;07
Speaker 3
Like.

00;21;30;09 - 00;21;31;12
Speaker 4
Becoming friends.

00;21;31;15 - 00;21;31;28
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00;21;32;02 - 00;21;40;02
Speaker 4
And but yeah, I mean, like, when we first met, it felt like we were, like, best friends right away. Oh.

00;21;40;05 - 00;21;40;23
Speaker 3
Totally.

00;21;40;23 - 00;22;03;14
Speaker 4
And, but, yeah, I mean, I mean, you even told me about your ish. I don't feel comfortable explaining what your what you were going through at the time. Yeah, but you you made it clear to me that that was, you know, a part of who you were or like when we first talked on the phone, like, you kind of want you, you, you wanted to like.

00;22;03;16 - 00;22;04;10
Speaker 2
Wow.

00;22;04;12 - 00;22;14;11
Speaker 4
Make make me aware that like, there, there that you were going through some, some stuff and that and that like I might encounter something. So I was aware.

00;22;14;17 - 00;22;15;14
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah.

00;22;15;20 - 00;22;28;12
Speaker 4
Coming in to the dorms and meeting you. I mean, obviously it didn't affect how I thought of you or anything, but it was like I, I knew that it was a thing, I guess. I mean, I was 18 at the time, so I wasn't equipped at all.

00;22;28;12 - 00;22;29;16
Speaker 2
To write.

00;22;29;18 - 00;22;35;11
Speaker 4
Like, talk to you about it or understand it at all. So sorry. And I'm just given a lot of backstory.

00;22;35;11 - 00;22;56;02
Speaker 2
No, no, I, I, I love you sharing that because I, I'm surprised, though, that that was the case. I. I don't remember doing that but that's, that's kind of cool. Especially you know, yeah. I think one thing that even though it was only 19 years ago, I think the discussion around mental health has evolved so much.

00;22;56;05 - 00;22;56;18
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00;22;56;24 - 00;23;10;03
Speaker 2
Where without a doubt, what I went through probably would not have happened. Because there would have been so much more support. There would have been more people talking about their own stuff. You know, I would have, you know, wouldn't have felt so alone. Alone with it.

00;23;10;03 - 00;23;10;28
Speaker 3
All.

00;23;11;00 - 00;23;17;26
Speaker 2
So if there's one thing we can give kudos to Gen Z for, it's there, you know?

00;23;17;29 - 00;23;18;06
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00;23;18;06 - 00;23;22;03
Speaker 4
I mean, can can you describe though, what was going on?

00;23;22;05 - 00;23;22;23
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00;23;22;24 - 00;23;23;09
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;23;23;09 - 00;23;25;06
Speaker 4
So if you're comfortable obviously.

00;23;25;10 - 00;23;27;28
Speaker 2
No, no, I mean that's, that's

00;23;28;01 - 00;23;29;21
Speaker 3
So yeah, it was.

00;23;29;24 - 00;23;33;28
Speaker 2
It was like no,

00;23;34;01 - 00;23;40;18
Speaker 2
So anyways, in the first scene of cannibal, the music. Is completely abandoned.

00;23;40;18 - 00;23;49;00
Speaker 4
My own, Well, yeah, I mean, it is it is interesting how art kind of, like, helps you both cope with something and ignore it.

00;23;49;04 - 00;24;03;15
Speaker 2
Yes. Oh, totally. Totally total distraction. And and I think, you know, realistically, that's how, like, men in particular connect, you know, it's it's over music and art because it's a little safer than.

00;24;03;17 - 00;24;05;18
Speaker 4
You know. Yeah. Or sports or whatever. Yeah.

00;24;05;18 - 00;24;06;00
Speaker 2
It's just.

00;24;06;04 - 00;24;09;03
Speaker 4
Something that has nothing to do with yourself.

00;24;09;05 - 00;24;10;09
Speaker 3
Or something. Yeah.

00;24;10;11 - 00;24;38;22
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. So anyways. Yeah, so it's hard to pinpoint, like where to start, but what I should say is, since so since I was 14 years old, so I'm just going to go, like, right into it, you know, the. Yeah. Yeah. But when I was 14 years old, I was in a really dark place, and I had a suicide attempt, and it was, it was like the end of the year for freshman year.

00;24;38;23 - 00;24;40;01
Speaker 2


00;24;40;03 - 00;24;41;12
Speaker 4
Jesus. I didn't even know that.

00;24;41;17 - 00;25;07;03
Speaker 2
Oh, really? Wow. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Was it was it was really awful. You know, it was it was like, really orchestrated and elaborate. And I told many people I was going to do it, and, and, even when I was doing it, I was like, call my girlfriend. So, you know, when I look back, part of me feels like I knew I didn't want to go through with it, you know, it was.

00;25;07;05 - 00;25;38;24
Speaker 2
I hate when people say like, oh the kid just wants attention. But you know that's what kids need right then. And there must have been a really big need for it. But but regardless. Yeah. 14 I was so then I was hospitalized and I spent like 15, 16 days inpatient. And what happened was that I was inpatient and then they saw my weight, which I was like, I was six five at the time, about six, four, six five and about like 120, 125 pounds.

00;25;38;24 - 00;25;59;22
Speaker 2
So, like real thin. Yeah. And they asked me, like, do they ask me questions about body image? And I told them I was just like, yeah, I mean, I don't, I don't I'm not happy with my body. I think I need to lose weight. And then it was there that they're like, okay, well then that you're anorexic, you know, you, you you're dangerously underweight.

00;25;59;22 - 00;26;25;23
Speaker 2
You, you're detached from the reality of, of of your body composition of, of, you know, so then because of that, if it was just depression, I probably would have been out much sooner. But with with anorexia, it's so dangerous. You're underweight. They want to stabilize you. So as I was institutionalized, basically. And then from there, I went to, it was like two.

00;26;25;29 - 00;26;48;03
Speaker 2
This was like during my summer. But it was like a month and a half, two months of an outpatient program. People with eating disorders, and I will emphasize, that is people, not kids, you know, so I was I was 14 years old and, and the majority of the population was like, you know, late 20s, 30s, some, some.

00;26;48;03 - 00;27;06;26
Speaker 2
And it was mostly women, you know, like like. Yeah, I see very, very sick and neurotic women. So it was like it was, you know, they talk about, like, I remember that movie blow. He's like you, you you don't you're not a criminal until you go to jail, right? That then and then do you die in prison?

00;27;06;26 - 00;27;12;11
Speaker 2
You learn what it means to be a criminal being around other criminals. Right? So I was like, you know,

00;27;12;13 - 00;27;17;23
Speaker 4
You're just a person until you meet people who are like you and you're like, oh, wow, I'm this person.

00;27;17;25 - 00;27;19;08
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah.

00;27;19;10 - 00;27;42;22
Speaker 2
And to see people who were like even further down the road, you know, and and just like the, you know, it was a very traumatizing experience for sure. You know, for for anyone to just be thrust into that. It was a very unsafe environment, just scary, you know, and they had me on these, like, pretty heavy duty antidepressants.

00;27;42;22 - 00;28;02;25
Speaker 2
So I was like, numb out and tired all the time. So, like, I wasn't even processing anything. But anyways, so from there on, it became like a part of my identity. Like, I'm this kid with problems, right? And and I've got this mind that's dangerous and wants to kill me.

00;28;02;27 - 00;28;20;25
Speaker 4
And, and just just to be clear, because we haven't said the actual, like, diagnosis, but like, where they, like, you're anorexic or like you have body dysmorphia or like what? What were the doctors telling you? Or like, how did you identify you? How do you identify.

00;28;20;28 - 00;28;29;07
Speaker 2
Yeah. No, no. They they yeah. They said you you have anorexia and it's like on the that would be on the file is, is and anorexia nervosa.

00;28;29;10 - 00;28;31;03
Speaker 3


00;28;31;05 - 00;28;44;26
Speaker 2
Yeah. And that was I don't identify with that. Now that's you know I, and I don't you know, as a therapist myself, I, I have a hard time with diagnosis in general for.

00;28;44;27 - 00;28;45;25
Speaker 4
Yeah.

00;28;45;28 - 00;28;52;03
Speaker 2
I have such empathy because of what I went through, you know, of being told, you know, you're almost branded. You know, you're.

00;28;52;03 - 00;28;52;26
Speaker 3
You're,

00;28;52;28 - 00;29;05;16
Speaker 2
Obviously diagnosis are helpful, right? It's like, okay, here's the illness. Now we got to treat it. But to be told, you know, it's one thing to say you have this and then another thing to kind of imply you are this, right. Like this is a part of.

00;29;05;17 - 00;29;06;03
Speaker 4
Yeah.

00;29;06;06 - 00;29;08;23
Speaker 2
And and really one thing.

00;29;08;23 - 00;29;22;23
Speaker 4
That I've always been curious about with like alcoholism or drug addiction, you know, people say like, I will always be an alcoholic. Like, I haven't drank a drop in 30 years, but I'm an alcoholic. Forever.

00;29;22;26 - 00;29;24;14
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah.

00;29;24;16 - 00;29;27;27
Speaker 4
Is that do you agree with that or I?

00;29;27;29 - 00;29;50;27
Speaker 2
For a long time I did, until I, you know, really got into more like, kind of holistic healing, you know, getting to the, the root of the problem. Basically, you know, there's, there's a story in therapy which is just like somebody goes to a rehab center and there's a therapist there, and he says, like, what do you what's your problem?

00;29;50;29 - 00;30;10;03
Speaker 2
And then the the new patient says, my problem is, I drink too much. And then the therapist says, no, you drink too much to treat the problem. What's the problem? Right. So anorexia, even anorexia that, that, that it was, you know, on of dismantle this since then. But it was.

00;30;10;03 - 00;30;10;20
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00;30;10;22 - 00;30;32;09
Speaker 2
Treating the problem. It's how I treated, you know, and these are emotional wounds. So and I think there's, there's an element of control in there, you know, but but there's also, there's also an element of shame, you know, there's a big element of shame to say, you know, I'm just there's something broken in me, like there's some, you know, demons.

00;30;32;09 - 00;30;35;19
Speaker 2
Yeah. That that will take over at any moment, you know.

00;30;35;21 - 00;30;36;21
Speaker 4
Will never leave me.

00;30;36;21 - 00;30;44;13
Speaker 2
Yeah. And I, I fully believe that these wounds can be healed, you know, and the narrative.

00;30;44;13 - 00;30;45;20
Speaker 4
Can be Linkin Park.

00;30;45;22 - 00;30;49;01
Speaker 2
That's right.

00;30;49;03 - 00;30;52;15
Speaker 3
It's, Sorry.

00;30;52;17 - 00;30;53;25
Speaker 4
It's crawling in your skin.

00;30;54;02 - 00;30;54;19
Speaker 2
That's right.

00;30;54;19 - 00;30;56;26
Speaker 4
His wounds, they will not heal.

00;30;56;29 - 00;31;02;01
Speaker 2
Yeah, I'm sorry, but they will.

00;31;02;04 - 00;31;03;00
Speaker 4
R.I.P Chester.

00;31;03;04 - 00;31;08;12
Speaker 2
Yeah that's right, that's right. I mean that that that's a very prescient lyric you know.

00;31;08;19 - 00;31;08;28
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00;31;09;04 - 00;31;23;16
Speaker 2
That belief. Right. And I think that's you know not to get dark but that's why people do kill themselves is they're convinced they'll never be better. You know, they're, they're I'm always going to be damaged. I'm always going to be broken. I'm always, you know, these wounds will never heal, right?

00;31;23;16 - 00;31;25;21
Speaker 3
Like,

00;31;25;24 - 00;31;34;04
Speaker 2
And and that projection into the future, I know it, you know, it's terrifying. And it is. It's very disempowering, you know?

00;31;34;09 - 00;31;36;06
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00;31;36;09 - 00;31;57;23
Speaker 4
So you're 14. All of this horrible stuff happens. You're exposed to this whole world of trauma and people who have dealt with this their whole life. Yeah, yeah. And then you go to college and you're set loose at that point where you feeling more in control over yourself? Like like, yeah. Better.

00;31;57;25 - 00;32;25;03
Speaker 2
Yeah. So I will say that there are like other programs throughout like my adolescence, like I went to this camp, which I love. It was like, you know, I went to this camp that summer and it was like I had spent this whole summer being institutionalized. And then I went to this camp in Missouri and it was like really run by very emotionally healthy people, like very grounded people.

00;32;25;03 - 00;32;46;00
Speaker 2
And, and I distinctly remember having the thought like 3 or 4 days in is like, wow, they're really treating me like there's nothing wrong with me, you know? And then like the huge relief that had on my system. So anyways, you know, I digress on that, but I'm still involved with this camp. I go every summer, you know, I love I have so many lifelong friends from here and then there.

00;32;46;03 - 00;32;47;07
Speaker 4
As a counselor. Right.

00;32;47;07 - 00;32;48;00
Speaker 2
Yeah yeah.

00;32;48;00 - 00;32;49;07
Speaker 4
Yeah yeah.

00;32;49;09 - 00;32;50;26
Speaker 3
Yeah. You know.

00;32;51;01 - 00;32;52;03
Speaker 2
Pretend to be a kid.

00;32;52;08 - 00;32;59;01
Speaker 3
You all you need help. Hello fellow students. Yeah.

00;32;59;04 - 00;32;59;23
Speaker 2
But anyway.

00;32;59;23 - 00;33;01;04
Speaker 3
I mean you know.

00;33;01;11 - 00;33;27;21
Speaker 2
But anyways, you know, I continue to struggle. 1415 my mom sent me to a boarding school in Minnesota for junior and senior year. My junior year, I didn't do too high. And then in between junior and senior year, my mom sent me to, wilderness therapy program. It was like, six weeks out in the woods, you know, surviving and doing, like, deep emotional work and stuff.

00;33;27;21 - 00;33;49;23
Speaker 2
But whatever happened there, you know, it did help my confidence. And then my senior year was, you know, I really flourished. I had these friends that I loved. I really started connecting with people, connecting with the community there. I had a therapist who I trusted. I was like, there was structure, you know, it was like 4 to 6 p.m. you're going to do your homework, you know?

00;33;49;25 - 00;34;14;20
Speaker 2
And it wasn't like strict, but it was it was I felt safe, you know, I felt, and most importantly, I felt like I had a community. Right? So. Yeah, after I graduated that, you know, I had to leave all my friends, I really they all lived in Minnesota, you know? So I was going back to Chicago and I remember the next month after I graduated, just being in a lot of grief.

00;34;14;20 - 00;34;35;07
Speaker 2
Like, I like a lot of sadness. Just just total, you know, lonely ness, you know, and, you know, if we're going to get into, like, going back to, you know, you drink to treat the problem. What's the problem? You know, loneliness is, is, is, you know, big part of, you know, loneliness.

00;34;35;07 - 00;34;35;19
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah.

00;34;35;26 - 00;34;40;14
Speaker 2
Longing for community, connection, love. You know? So,

00;34;40;16 - 00;34;43;10
Speaker 4
But also, we're both children of divorce.

00;34;43;10 - 00;34;43;26
Speaker 3
Which.

00;34;44;02 - 00;35;06;06
Speaker 4
I now had, like, a huge mental toll on me. Yeah. And I wonder if that might have played into a little bit. I mean, because. Yeah, when you're a kid and, like, you hear having to go to two different houses you're dealing with now with like, two separate personalities, it's like somehow like the mother father unit, like, splits your mind into.

00;35;06;08 - 00;35;09;11
Speaker 4
And it's hard to, like, find the center again.

00;35;09;17 - 00;35;10;03
Speaker 2
Absolutely.

00;35;10;03 - 00;35;23;06
Speaker 4
At least that was like my experience. And so I wonder if, like, some of that loneliness like stems a bit from there and like feeling a little disconnected from your parents and still like being a child really, you know?

00;35;23;06 - 00;35;28;20
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. No big time. I mean, I think you hit nail on the head.

00;35;28;22 - 00;35;31;24
Speaker 3


00;35;31;26 - 00;35;48;05
Speaker 2
My. Yeah, I would only see my father probably like you, like every other weekend. And I don't know about you in this respect, but, like, my dad really kept a distance outside of those visits, so it was like, you know, he would drop us off, and it would be like, okay, well, I guess I'll see you when I see it, you know?

00;35;48;05 - 00;35;51;00
Speaker 2
And as a kid, that's, like, really devastating, you know?

00;35;51;00 - 00;35;53;03
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00;35;53;06 - 00;36;24;20
Speaker 4
It was it was a little different with my dad, but, he, he was, he was very much wanting to be a part of our lives. Okay. You know, for every, every moment. But, it was to the detriment of my relationship with my mother because he he wanted to take me away from her, basically, you know, like, he was like, I don't know, like, kind of competing for attention and time with me, you know?

00;36;24;20 - 00;36;25;02
Speaker 4
So.

00;36;25;02 - 00;36;25;19
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;36;25;19 - 00;36;26;17
Speaker 4
Would he and my brother.

00;36;26;25 - 00;36;28;22
Speaker 2
Would you parents push each other down a.

00;36;28;22 - 00;36;30;08
Speaker 3
Lot, like.

00;36;30;11 - 00;36;50;12
Speaker 4
Yeah. To you? Yeah. Big time, big time, big time. My mom kind of was, like, wised up to it, like realizing, I think, like, okay, this is their father. She shouldn't be saying those things about him. Yeah, but at least through my adolescence, like that was not the case for my dad. It was.

00;36;50;18 - 00;36;53;07
Speaker 3
It was. It was a little.

00;36;53;09 - 00;37;22;17
Speaker 2
And. Yeah, that's very confusing for a kid, you know, to have all these mixed messages about who your father is, who your mother is. You know, because kids are defining themselves through their parents, you know, and, there's this quote which is like, I inherited I inherited my father's looks, his his sense of humor, his personality, his his, you know, attitude on life and my mother's resentment of my father.

00;37;22;20 - 00;37;25;20
Speaker 3
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

00;37;25;22 - 00;37;43;05
Speaker 4
I feel I feel like it's sort of the opposite for me. I feel like I kind of take on a little bit more of my mom's, like, gregarious ness. Whereas, like, I, I did take on a lot of my dad's resentment of my mom after the divorce. But, yeah.

00;37;43;07 - 00;37;44;21
Speaker 3
I don't know. Yeah.

00;37;44;23 - 00;37;46;15
Speaker 4
Anyways, we're talking about you.

00;37;46;17 - 00;37;47;27
Speaker 3
Yeah, I know.

00;37;47;29 - 00;38;01;16
Speaker 2
Well, I mean, it's helpful because, I mean, especially because, like I said, the theme was loneliness, right? The theme was. Yeah, feeling just like like something had gone wrong, you know. And yeah, I will mention just

00;38;01;19 - 00;38;04;16
Speaker 4
Like you're lost in the woods with nothing to eat.

00;38;04;19 - 00;38;08;04
Speaker 3
That's right, that's right.

00;38;08;07 - 00;38;13;05
Speaker 2
And there's a cyclops out there.

00;38;13;08 - 00;38;16;20
Speaker 4
And you don't know the Dixie lands.

00;38;16;22 - 00;38;19;26
Speaker 3
I.

00;38;19;28 - 00;38;42;04
Speaker 2
So yeah. The only you know, the thing I'll add to that is, is, you know, there's there's some other precipitating factors to the loneliness, which is. I'm one of seven children. Right and. Right. There's four different fathers and my mom's been single for most of my life, you know? So, like, it was like, financially speaking, resources.

00;38;42;04 - 00;38;46;21
Speaker 2
But in terms of attention, love, affection, you know, resources were limited, right?

00;38;46;24 - 00;38;48;02
Speaker 3
So, yeah.

00;38;48;04 - 00;39;12;06
Speaker 2
And, I think the last nail in the coffin in terms of, like, childhood trauma was that we had a stepdad named Ken, and he came in when I was like 5 or 6, and then he became my dad, for all purposes. You know, he was around, you know, he lived with us. He he was very fun, you know, he was he was very, he really seemed to care about us and like, like, enjoy us.

00;39;12;06 - 00;39;36;27
Speaker 2
You know, that's a big thing. Is that, like, he really wanted to do things with us. We just, you know, felt so good to have that. That. Yeah. But him and my mom split up shortly after half to having my shortly after having my three little siblings. And then after that, this like this, this really twisted darkness kind of came over him, you know, in the way that really only happens in movies.

00;39;36;27 - 00;39;59;05
Speaker 2
It seems like when someone's like losing, it seems like they're losing everything, and then they get all twisted and snap. Yeah. And he became emotionally very abusive to all of us, you know, like a lot of guilt. A lot of, you know, he would he would berate my mom to the 10th degree and really play into, you know, he would say like, oh, your mom has no time for you.

00;39;59;05 - 00;40;41;09
Speaker 2
I feel so bad for you, you know, and like, like really kind of, like, own me into this, like, victim space. But he was doing that for the purpose of me, you know, having more affection for him. You know, he was he was playing with my emotions. And and then he just got, like, emotionally violent. And there's even, you know, I don't want to go into it, but there's, myself included, there's, there's instances of, like, physical and sexual boundaries that don't quite go into straight up like molestation or pedophilia, but, but were very inappropriate and uncomfortable and kind of him, I look at it as like him trying to just hold

00;40;41;09 - 00;41;01;19
Speaker 2
on to a space because. Because he felt like he was losing us. So, so he left a horrible mark, and at one point, he left me this, like, CD player. He bought it for me. And, I was like 12 or 13 years old. I was like, oh, thanks. Like, I didn't have the reaction he wanted. And then he, he sped off in his car.

00;41;01;19 - 00;41;19;27
Speaker 2
He just like, got his car sped off. And then he called. He called the house phone and he's like, I picked up and he goes, you better watch out, or else you're going to turn into a bitch just like your mother, and then hung up and then the thing is, is that that was literally the last time I saw him like, that was it, you know?

00;41;19;29 - 00;41;25;01
Speaker 2
And at 12 and a 12 or 13, it's like, what the fuck did I do? You know?

00;41;25;01 - 00;41;26;18
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah.

00;41;26;21 - 00;41;31;19
Speaker 2
This guy was dad, you know, this guy was there, and now he's gone and it's like.

00;41;31;21 - 00;41;33;10
Speaker 4
Yeah, what an awful thing to say.

00;41;33;16 - 00;41;36;09
Speaker 2
I know there's just just terrible and everything.

00;41;36;10 - 00;41;41;13
Speaker 4
And that he, like, gave you a gift. And then it's like you're stuck with this gift from a guy who, like.

00;41;41;13 - 00;41;41;18
Speaker 3
I.

00;41;41;24 - 00;42;07;26
Speaker 4
Warned you about your possible future, you know? And so then you have, like, everything tied up. I mean, like, when I was, when I was 12 or 13, like, my CD player was fucking everything, you know, it was like I carried it everywhere. Like listening to music was everything to me. So it's like, I don't know if that was like that for you, but I mean, like to have, like an object that's so tied up with something so horrible.

00;42;08;02 - 00;42;29;22
Speaker 2
Exactly. Yeah. I mean, it was just just, I think confusing is is the best word to use for, that whole time, you know, and and lastly, you know, I'm not going to put her on blast. She had so much going on in her life. But, you know, things with my mom were never that great. You know, she was a short fuze.

00;42;29;25 - 00;42;32;00
Speaker 2
She was stressed a lot. You know.

00;42;32;01 - 00;42;32;24
Speaker 3


00;42;32;26 - 00;43;07;11
Speaker 2
I think for all of her kids, or at least for me and my, my two closest siblings, you know, we just wanted to be good kids. We didn't want to put too much on her plate. You know, it would be, like, very, very unpredictable. Like what would set her off? Like, what would upset her, you know? And it just like it created this, like, tension that, I just know, you know, the purpose of even getting into all this is just to help explain how just alone and unsafe I felt, you know, at first time and and then after, you know, I got diagnosed, you know, that really freaked her out.

00;43;07;13 - 00;43;08;00
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00;43;08;02 - 00;43;26;19
Speaker 2
And I think, you know, if there was some, some subconscious intentions of, like, oh, this will finally give me what I need. And then it got really the opposite. It got like what I, you know, be careful what you wish for it like, like if I was looking for more presents and love and compassion, what I got was like, more control.

00;43;26;21 - 00;43;28;09
Speaker 3
More. Yeah.

00;43;28;12 - 00;43;41;20
Speaker 2
You know, just just fearful and and, you know, the thing that I think scarred me the most was she was big into the devil. And she would talk about the devil a lot. Yeah. I mean, there was like, there were times where she would say like.

00;43;41;20 - 00;43;43;05
Speaker 4
Like she was a Satanist.

00;43;43;08 - 00;43;46;03
Speaker 3
No, no.

00;43;46;06 - 00;43;49;11
Speaker 4
She's dressed in black robes and lighting candles.

00;43;49;14 - 00;43;49;29
Speaker 3
Related to.

00;43;49;29 - 00;43;50;15
Speaker 2
The devil.

00;43;50;15 - 00;43;54;00
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah.

00;43;54;02 - 00;44;15;27
Speaker 2
No, she was big into, like, siding or blaming the devil for, like, all my problems. And, so if you can imagine, you know, like a kid who's literally starving to death, who's just wants to be held and loved and told everything is going to be okay. And then, you know, the parent, he's he's the only parent who's around because dad's not even around, right.

00;44;15;28 - 00;44;35;24
Speaker 2
The only parent who's around is going like, you know, you're you're haunted, basically like you you have a demon inside of you. You know, that's the message of getting. And it was like, oh my God, you know, and wow, you know, anorexia is all about control. It's all about. Yeah, you know, it's all about I don't feel safe.

00;44;35;24 - 00;44;54;24
Speaker 2
At least I can control what I eat. At least I can control my body, you know, as well, you know, there's that promise of, like, one day I'll look good enough that, you know, someone will love me. Someone will come. Yeah, I want to be with me. So it's a long back story, but it's really necessary to explain what happened our freshman year.

00;44;54;24 - 00;45;01;19
Speaker 2
So? So. Yeah. So. So senior year ended. That summer, I was feeling better. I was feeling good. I was feeling ready.

00;45;01;21 - 00;45;02;27
Speaker 3
And,

00;45;03;00 - 00;45;12;10
Speaker 2
Active narrative was like, Justin's better, you know that. And he's he's ready to, you know, be a healthy kid, you know,

00;45;12;13 - 00;45;15;08
Speaker 4
Be an adult, go to college, be on his own.

00;45;15;08 - 00;45;39;11
Speaker 2
That's right, that's right. So, yeah. So, yeah, freshman year, like I met you. And what I should mention is that all throughout high school, I had this really strict straight edge mentality, you know, no drinking, no smoking of any kind. You know, I, I was I was kind of snobby at times, you know, to my friends who would do it, you know, look down.

00;45;39;11 - 00;45;41;00
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah.

00;45;41;02 - 00;45;51;08
Speaker 2
But anyways, the first night of college, you know, it's like it's college, you know, and, and, you know, we we drank Carlo Rossi and Jan and I was like, this is awesome. You know, it's just like, yeah.

00;45;51;08 - 00;45;51;23
Speaker 4
Yeah, yeah.

00;45;52;00 - 00;46;13;03
Speaker 2
I feel so relaxed. I feel so, you know, in the moment and then, and then I walked over to our suite, made, Christian's version. Yeah. Who's who's a friend of ours still, and and, he gave me my first taste of marijuana, and I'm like, Holy shit. This is. You know, I'm even more relaxed, you know?

00;46;13;08 - 00;46;14;10
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah.

00;46;14;12 - 00;46;17;11
Speaker 4
Was that the really the first time you ever smoked?

00;46;17;13 - 00;46;30;22
Speaker 2
That was the first time. Well, I had tried before in, like, the seventh grade, but I didn't get high. That was the first time I ever got high. And that night, as we were getting high, an RA, busted.

00;46;30;22 - 00;46;31;17
Speaker 4
Us, right?

00;46;31;18 - 00;46;32;02
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;46;32;03 - 00;46;34;12
Speaker 3
Yeah, I forgot.

00;46;34;12 - 00;46;34;20
Speaker 4
About.

00;46;34;20 - 00;46;53;16
Speaker 2
That. I remember, like, the first, you know, that night being like, Holy shit, I'm going to get kicked out of college. Like my. That was my first thought. I was like, my mom's going to be so pissed. Like, this is going to. Yeah, terrible. And then I met with, like, the Dean or something. He was like, just write an essay, you know, explaining your contrition.

00;46;53;16 - 00;46;59;03
Speaker 2
Like, you know, why you feel bad for what you did. And, and I wrote some bullcrap, you know?

00;46;59;06 - 00;47;00;10
Speaker 3
Yeah. Yeah.

00;47;00;13 - 00;47;24;19
Speaker 2
But anyways. But but so then from then on, I discovered, you know, alcohol and weed, and I was like, I feel great, you know? And, and we were connecting and laughing and, and, you know, you mentioned that, that video that's loss of me, like kind of riffing on LED Zeppelin and. Yeah, the thing was, is that like, I've always been and it's, it's it's wavered in and out throughout my life.

00;47;24;19 - 00;47;49;19
Speaker 2
But I've always been like a pretty shallow person was, you know, a lot of fear. Fearful of people, fearful of rejection, you know? So I was free, you know, like my my, with the help of substances, I was free. I could, like, play and laugh and, you know, have fun and but unfortunately, you know, when you're in school, you also have to do school, you know, and that.

00;47;49;23 - 00;47;50;13
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00;47;50;15 - 00;47;51;26
Speaker 4
So I have responsibilities.

00;47;51;26 - 00;47;52;22
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00;47;52;24 - 00;48;12;27
Speaker 2
And that had no appeal to me whatsoever. You know, it was like, why the hell would I do this, you know, or. Yeah, I had no idea what I wanted to do with my life. You know, I was, I was and this was again, this is the first time I got to try, you know, being a kid and just goofing off and, you know, and it was like, it felt great, you know?

00;48;13;03 - 00;48;14;14
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00;48;14;16 - 00;48;26;06
Speaker 2
But what I will say is that around at some point, I don't know what happened, but I it must have came.

00;48;26;09 - 00;48;27;20
Speaker 3


00;48;27;23 - 00;48;54;00
Speaker 2
I'm guessing it was because I knew I was slipping in school. I think that was the trigger that kind of brought the anorexia back, because I would have come to discovers that a big trigger for me is feeling like a disappointment. That that, unfortunately, my relationship with my mother throughout much of my life has left me with that wound, that that feeling.

00;48;54;02 - 00;49;18;28
Speaker 2
And it's ancestral. That's how her mother made her feel. You know, that's how you know, my grandma's mother made it. You know, it's it's just, generational trauma. Yes, exactly. You know, so I remember I just remember at some point, like, I wasn't going to classes, I didn't do my homework. There were girls that I had my eyes on that I was just like, I finally have, you know, I want a girlfriend.

00;49;18;28 - 00;49;38;09
Speaker 2
I want to give. I was still virgin. I was like, I want to get laid, you know? And with that, you know, my my hyper fixation on my body increased, you know, like, like the, body dysmorphia got worse, you know, whereas I would look in the mirror and be like, who? Who would want to sleep with it?

00;49;38;10 - 00;49;49;26
Speaker 2
You know, who would want this? But you know, it's gross, you know. So then so then I started working out more, you know, I started eating less. I think I went vegan at some point. I was like, I'm a vegan now, you know.

00;49;49;26 - 00;49;50;24
Speaker 4


00;49;50;24 - 00;50;00;00
Speaker 2
And it was just totally, again, just trying to control myself, trying to, you know, have have control over something because I felt, you know, out of control, like.

00;50;00;02 - 00;50;00;19
Speaker 3
Right. Yeah.

00;50;00;25 - 00;50;09;10
Speaker 2
I didn't know what I was doing. And I knew I know doom was headed, you know, in terms of just all doom.

00;50;09;13 - 00;50;12;04
Speaker 3
Except you,

00;50;12;06 - 00;50;31;10
Speaker 2
It's aligned for general. But that's harbinger. That's right, that's right. You know, and that's that's, and that's what was going on. So, we'll get back to cannibal in a second. But because I discovered cannibal right around that time that I started slipping was when, you know, you guys were like, oh, this movie cannibal, you know?

00;50;31;10 - 00;50;42;25
Speaker 2
So it was almost like, all right, you know, you've gone through some shit, but here's a, here's a life you have to hold on to. You know, that it was just like, something that brought me joy and but,

00;50;42;27 - 00;50;45;17
Speaker 4
A movie that's about eating.

00;50;45;19 - 00;50;48;11
Speaker 3
It's about. Yes, that's what I notice.

00;50;48;13 - 00;51;01;27
Speaker 2
That's what I noticed last night, is that it's they're they're literally starving, you know, there they come. And, the theme of, like, people eating each other, you know, that that as opposed to supporting each other, working together, you know.

00;51;01;28 - 00;51;03;04
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00;51;03;07 - 00;51;11;27
Speaker 4
I wonder if, like, somewhere, like, subconsciously, you're like, oh, I relate to these guys. Like walking through the wilderness, lost, starving.

00;51;12;04 - 00;51;32;25
Speaker 2
Totally. Absolutely, absolutely. What happened was, so eventually I had to, like, withdraw from, from an English class, and, I had to tell them, like, it became too late for to not tell my mom anymore, that I was struggling. And, as was expected, total pandemonium. You know.

00;51;32;27 - 00;51;34;06
Speaker 3


00;51;34;08 - 00;51;48;16
Speaker 2
You know, I can't emphasize this enough that it's not my intention to put my mom on blast. I just don't think she had the skills, you know? She didn't know what she was dealing with. Ever with me. Yeah, like I said, mental health was not even, you know, it was hardly discussed back then.

00;51;48;18 - 00;51;50;01
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00;51;50;03 - 00;52;07;23
Speaker 2
But, you know, I know if I had a kid and it was like, you know, if Jonas, my son was like, dad, I had to withdraw from class. I would be like, oh, man, what's going on? You know, like, what do you need? Like, like, like, do you need to come home like, like, you know, you must really be going through something.

00;52;07;23 - 00;52;28;10
Speaker 2
But unfortunately, I didn't get that response. I got this, like you are. You fucked up like like why? You know, and this, like, very personal. Kind of like, why would you do this to me? You know, she was so upset that we were, you know, back at it again. You know, I thought you were all better,

00;52;28;12 - 00;52;29;12
Speaker 4
Disappointing her.

00;52;29;14 - 00;52;45;20
Speaker 2
Yes, exactly, exactly. And then there was actually, an eye towards the end of the trimester, her, my dad took me out to dinner, and that's when they saw how much weight I had lost that actually, throughout the semester, I had lost, like, 30 pounds.

00;52;45;20 - 00;52;46;03
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00;52;46;08 - 00;53;06;27
Speaker 2
And that's when they saw. And I just remember my mom being like, you know, it could have been a little different, but in my memory, it's like, what have you done? You know, again, it it wasn't that compassion. I needed that empathy. It was like, what have you done? And then, my dad shed a tear. I would have never seen him cry in my life, you know?

00;53;06;27 - 00;53;14;25
Speaker 2
And she even said, like, something like, you know, look, look what you're putting him through, you know, which is just like, oh, God, you know?

00;53;14;25 - 00;53;15;21
Speaker 3
So, yeah.

00;53;15;28 - 00;53;36;16
Speaker 2
Anyways, after that, I had to. Well, okay, so what happened was that, like, I had a conversation with my mom, and I remember she was like, if you want to stay in school, here's the deal. You're going to live at home with me. You know, she's basically like, you're never going out. Like like, you know, you're going to work.

00;53;36;16 - 00;53;58;11
Speaker 2
She had her own company. She's like, you're going to work at my company. All of your paychecks are going to go to me, and you're going to take the metro to class and come right back afterwards. And it was like. And she was like, you're 18. You can just move out. And I was like, I like, I like the or, you know, I that, plan A does not sound great.

00;53;58;15 - 00;53;59;13
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah.

00;53;59;16 - 00;54;04;06
Speaker 2
And, and, a friend we had made, like, like Carlson.

00;54;04;08 - 00;54;04;22
Speaker 3
He.

00;54;04;25 - 00;54;35;27
Speaker 2
He, he had a girlfriend at the time. Marie, you know, talk about an angel. But she. I don't know if she had, you know, some sort of motherly complex from her own mother, but, like, she she really I really get the sense that she wanted to take care of me. And she was like, you can live, in my living room, you know, she had a nice one bedroom apartment, and, and I was like, okay, you know, and I crashed in her in her living room, for like two months.

00;54;35;29 - 00;54;42;00
Speaker 2
And I had a job for a week, and I got fired from it because I was too slow, you know? And.

00;54;42;03 - 00;54;43;06
Speaker 4
What was the job?

00;54;43;09 - 00;54;52;27
Speaker 2
It was, possible. I was like, Yeah, I was the I was answering phones and putting to go orders together, and I was just like, do you know?

00;54;52;27 - 00;54;55;24
Speaker 3
Okay. Works.

00;54;55;26 - 00;55;27;28
Speaker 2
Yeah. But I was there for like two months and again, more just like onslaught from my mom, you know, just like you're tearing up this family. I think one of the darkest parts was, my nephew Noah was born December 23rd of that year, and, my oldest brother, Ryan wanted to make, Well, he called me to explain that he was going to make me the godfather and Whitney, my sister, the godmother.

00;55;28;00 - 00;56;00;20
Speaker 2
But because of that, I forget how he worded it. But the impression was like, because of how you're failing, you know, because of how you're, like, really? You know, not showing up or letting the family down like, I can't honor you with, and he chose, like, a friend or something. And now, oh, you know, it was just as I tell this story as, like, one thing after the next of, like, you know, and I really I really carried this, like, I really carry this for so much of my life, this sense of, like, you really fucked up.

00;56;00;20 - 00;56;16;01
Speaker 2
You really fucked up. You should have known better. You shouldn't. You know what? You're the, you know, the devil or the, you know, all this guilt and shame and it's like I was a fucking kid. I was 18 years old, you know? It was right. Yeah, it was brutal. It was just brutal, you know?

00;56;16;04 - 00;56;17;02
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00;56;17;04 - 00;56;38;15
Speaker 4
It just seemed like nobody knew how to address it. No, nobody. Nobody knew how to get you back on track. I mean, obviously all of this stuff is because people were concerned about you and wanted the best for you. Yeah, but it seemed like everybody's response to it was actually just getting you deeper into that hole.

00;56;38;22 - 00;56;56;19
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. I think the, the biggest lesson from it, and I really appreciate you saying that, because I know that in my heart now that everyone just is, I can't imagine how painful it was for, for people, just to see me like that. I mean, there were a lot of people who were certain I was going to be dead, you know, like.

00;56;56;19 - 00;57;04;15
Speaker 2
Like they were like, he's going to kill himself. Like it's it's all, you know. And, so I appreciate that.

00;57;04;16 - 00;57;06;01
Speaker 3


00;57;06;04 - 00;57;28;03
Speaker 2
Yeah. You know, I was so embroiled in shame at the time that all I could hear, like, if people are saying, like, you know, like, it really pains me, you know, to see you this way, all I could hear was, look what you're doing to me. You know, like, it's just like, oh, okay. Another person I'm. I'm. I'm putting through hell because I can't get life right.

00;57;28;07 - 00;57;29;14
Speaker 2


00;57;29;17 - 00;58;08;27
Speaker 4
So one thing I can say about my perspective. Yeah. Of you at that time, I didn't see any of this. Like, I wasn't seeing the weight loss. I wasn't seeing, like, the trauma. I wasn't seeing any of the problems with your family. Right? Like, it was just. We were just hanging out, having a great time. Like you never like, you know, I mean, maybe there were a few times when you opened up to me and saying, like, you're upset or, you know, you know, I probably did the same thing with you every here or there, but nothing to a point where it's like, I am on like the brink of life and death.

00;58;08;27 - 00;58;31;06
Speaker 4
Like this is I'm in true, true crisis. You know, I, I, I never got that sense. It it was. Yeah. It wasn't until after you dropped out that like, it became a little clearer to me that you were going through something really serious. Yeah, but as I said in the beginning, like, to this day, like, I don't know, half of the stuff you're telling me right now.

00;58;31;06 - 00;58;53;10
Speaker 4
So. Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, that's just that's just to say that I think that I, I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing, but like, you do a really good job of, like, just being, normal, good guy, you know, throughout, like some, some kind of turmoil.

00;58;53;15 - 00;58;53;25
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00;58;54;00 - 00;59;03;19
Speaker 4
And I think maybe that's common for people who are going through something real, really serious. It's like, obviously they don't want to, kind of put that on everybody.

00;59;03;19 - 00;59;06;09
Speaker 3
But yeah, I don't know.

00;59;06;11 - 00;59;34;18
Speaker 2
Yeah. No, I appreciate you saying that. And I think that's like that speaks to the loneliness you know. Of, of of being a master hater. You know. Yeah. Man I'm just so good at compartmentalizing and self-control and, and, and you know, the biggest thing is that, you know, people were telling me like, you're sick, you need help or you know, you know, you're not in good space.

00;59;34;18 - 00;59;47;00
Speaker 2
And it was like, I didn't want them to be right, you know? Like, I didn't want to in my mind as, like, I didn't want to admit defeat. You know, I wanted to prove to everyone that I could do this.

00;59;47;02 - 00;59;47;16
Speaker 3


00;59;47;19 - 00;59;55;29
Speaker 2
And back to the movie, you know, back to cannibal. Is that. Yeah. That was Alfred Packer's demise, at least in the film.

00;59;56;01 - 00;59;56;24
Speaker 3
You know. Yeah.

00;59;56;24 - 01;00;10;18
Speaker 2
Because of the, the trappers, he wanted to prove them wrong. And he was so convinced, he was so convinced that they stole his horse that they were like, I'll show them. You know, I can make it, you know, the territory they're going to. And it was.

01;00;10;20 - 01;00;11;07
Speaker 3
Yeah.

01;00;11;09 - 01;00;32;08
Speaker 2
That's that's the moment in the movie when he says so they they they sing this song. It's all I'm asking for, right? Yeah. And I thought that it's such a beautiful song, such a simple sentiment and. Exactly. You know, that's all I was asking for. I just wanted a happy life. I just, you know, that. That's all we really want, right?

01;00;32;08 - 01;00;33;18
Speaker 2
We just want to be happy.

01;00;33;20 - 01;00;34;18
Speaker 3
Right? Yeah.

01;00;34;21 - 01;00;51;18
Speaker 4
Or or. I mean, I think when I think of this movie, obviously, I think of the snowman song. I think that's the hardest we ever laughed together like, that was the moment when, like, we just lost our minds, like.

01;00;51;19 - 01;00;51;29
Speaker 3
Yeah.

01;00;52;06 - 01;00;54;04
Speaker 4
He just total hysterics.

01;00;54;06 - 01;00;54;16
Speaker 3
Yeah.

01;00;54;23 - 01;01;02;05
Speaker 4
But that song is, it starts off like very somber, like maybe we'll all die.

01;01;02;05 - 01;01;07;15
Speaker 3
So let's build a snowman. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

01;01;07;15 - 01;01;25;06
Speaker 4
And and like that character of Swan, he's just like, this overly optimistic, overly happy person when they're, like, literally starving and dying. Yeah. And I just remember us just just cracking up. The guy got sober with the pickax and.

01;01;25;06 - 01;01;29;21
Speaker 3
Just smashes the snow, man. So good. Like, just.

01;01;29;26 - 01;01;31;17
Speaker 4
Like, literally on the floor.

01;01;31;24 - 01;01;33;12
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah.

01;01;33;14 - 01;01;39;28
Speaker 2
That character salon is so amazing about his, like, his unbridled commitment to optimism.

01;01;40;00 - 01;01;40;06
Speaker 3
Yeah.

01;01;40;08 - 01;01;42;23
Speaker 2
You know, like, like when they first find snow and he's.

01;01;42;23 - 01;01;48;15
Speaker 3
Like, hey, we should build snowmen. And he's like, he's like throwing snowballs.

01;01;48;18 - 01;01;50;13
Speaker 4
And even when he's dead, he's got that big.

01;01;50;13 - 01;01;54;24
Speaker 3
Smile on his face. It looks like it looks like he's going to sing a song.

01;01;54;27 - 01;01;58;17
Speaker 4
And push in. It's like, no, no, he's dead.

01;01;58;19 - 01;01;59;26
Speaker 3


01;01;59;28 - 01;02;22;13
Speaker 2
But yeah, you know, it's I've talked a lot about family dynamics and how just as a collective, we had no idea what we were dealing with, you know, and we all kind of dropped the ball. But but the real heart of the issue is life itself. You know, is that I can sit here and blame my family and say, oh, you know, there's so this or that.

01;02;22;13 - 01;02;40;27
Speaker 2
But the truth is, is that, you know, life is the culprit in that, you know, all of our neurosis is like, how do we deal with the uncertainties of life, you know, how do we make ourselves feel secure with the fact that people do starve? People do die. You know that that that we do. We don't know what's coming next.

01;02;40;27 - 01;02;48;16
Speaker 2
And, you know, there's there's Cyclops out there, you know, there's there's there's bad there's bad people out there that can wish us harm.

01;02;48;17 - 01;02;50;14
Speaker 4
And, and we aren't southern boys.

01;02;50;17 - 01;02;52;28
Speaker 3
We don't so much when.

01;02;53;01 - 01;02;54;27
Speaker 2
We're not welcome. Right?

01;02;54;29 - 01;02;57;19
Speaker 4
We're stupid Yanks.

01;02;57;22 - 01;03;19;27
Speaker 2
So, you know, I think it's it's. And really, everything I struggled with mentally is if you put it in, like a petri dish and you just like, looked at the, like, molecular makeup, you would see the same things in the psyches of all of my siblings and all of my aunts and uncles, you know, it's like, again, it's like I inherited certain viewpoints.

01;03;19;28 - 01;03;44;13
Speaker 2
And, you know, I'm not the first person in my family who had an unhealthy relationship with food. You know, I, I'm, I think I was the first person who didn't get away with it, you know, because I took it, took it to the next level, you know, and that's just one example. Right? And then, I hold nothing but, you know, under forgiveness there.

01;03;44;13 - 01;03;44;24
Speaker 4
Yeah.

01;03;44;26 - 01;04;06;17
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's just understanding, you know, it's just it's it's, you know, like Jesus said, you know, when when he was getting his, his nails in his wrist and he said, you know, forgive them. They don't they don't know what they're doing, you know, and that's the truth is that, there's just so much fear. And fear makes us idiots.

01;04;06;19 - 01;04;14;12
Speaker 2
You know, the bottom line is it just it doesn't it doesn't allow us to address the real needs of the situation, you know?

01;04;14;14 - 01;04;17;03
Speaker 3
Yeah. So what? We're.

01;04;17;03 - 01;04;29;11
Speaker 4
I mean, it's kind of interesting you talk about this because it's like, if you look at it chronologically, is like you were doing great until you watched cannibal.

01;04;29;13 - 01;04;30;09
Speaker 3
Do you like.

01;04;30;14 - 01;04;31;17
Speaker 2
Oh that's interesting.

01;04;31;17 - 01;04;32;16
Speaker 3
Yeah. It's like it's.

01;04;32;16 - 01;04;34;00
Speaker 4
Like actually after you watch.

01;04;34;00 - 01;04;37;16
Speaker 3
The movie, everything went to shit.

01;04;37;19 - 01;04;38;02
Speaker 4
But.

01;04;38;09 - 01;04;40;11
Speaker 3
Then it.

01;04;40;13 - 01;05;04;16
Speaker 4
But I mean, obviously something about this movie or maybe the things that we were ingesting and the way that we were relating in those first years was giving you some sort of comfort or some kind of help helping you maybe ignore or cope with what you were dealing with internally.

01;05;04;16 - 01;05;05;06
Speaker 3
Yes.

01;05;05;09 - 01;05;24;24
Speaker 4
But what was it about this movie that you like, associate with? Like a positive? Like like where it's like, I mean, other than it just being a really funny movie, and he cracked up and had a great time, but is there something about this movie or maybe something else during that time that was really, helping you through this crisis?

01;05;24;26 - 01;05;47;15
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think, really, you know, if we want to, like, give more meaning than was ever intended in this movie. It is a movie about resilience, right? It's it's it's, you know, because that's something we haven't talked about is that Alfred Packer is unfairly, you know, put on trial here, right? Like, the whole town hates him.

01;05;47;15 - 01;05;48;14
Speaker 2
Right. And I think.

01;05;48;14 - 01;05;48;28
Speaker 4
Yeah, yeah.

01;05;49;01 - 01;05;55;10
Speaker 2
I related to that, right? That, you know, not that everyone hated me, but but, like, that feeling of, like, what are you doing?

01;05;55;10 - 01;05;56;07
Speaker 1
You know, what have you done?

01;05;56;08 - 01;05;56;28
Speaker 2
You know, and it's.

01;05;56;28 - 01;05;57;20
Speaker 4
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01;05;57;20 - 01;06;16;03
Speaker 2
It's like I'm just surviving, you know? I'm just doing what I can. Yeah. You know? True, true. So I think there was like, solace in that. I think the musicality of the movie, you know, is, is just to have it overlaid with the tragedy of everything is like a reminder that there's, you know, you can really laugh through anything, you know.

01;06;16;05 - 01;06;16;28
Speaker 3
Yeah.

01;06;17;01 - 01;06;18;18
Speaker 4
The absurdity of.

01;06;18;20 - 01;06;20;07
Speaker 3
The sorrow of the.

01;06;20;07 - 01;06;21;18
Speaker 4
True situation.

01;06;21;18 - 01;06;22;21
Speaker 2
Right, right.

01;06;22;22 - 01;06;24;06
Speaker 3
And just. Yeah.

01;06;24;08 - 01;06;27;15
Speaker 4
Yeah, laying this shit twinkle all over it.

01;06;27;17 - 01;06;29;29
Speaker 3
Yeah.

01;06;30;02 - 01;06;55;09
Speaker 2
But that's, that's I mean, I think that's the biggest thing is that, like, I never throughout my life with, I think a few exceptions, I really never lost my sense of humor, you know. And that is for sure. That's, that has to be, you know, one of the biggest reasons I'm still here. If I ever took this, you know, 100% seriously, it would have been over, you know?

01;06;55;11 - 01;06;56;08
Speaker 3
Yeah.

01;06;56;10 - 01;07;17;10
Speaker 2
So and I think that was the message of the movie, too. Yeah, yeah. And and like I said, you know, that that movie is infused with the energy of the community that built it. You know, that that, there's so much love that went into that movie. And I think I felt that.

01;07;17;12 - 01;07;35;10
Speaker 4
Yeah, it was an inspirational for us. I mean, like, because, I mean, at the time they were making that movie, they they weren't that much older than we were at the time. We were watching it right. And we were kind of like, man, we should make a movie. You know? It's totally we should make a snowman.

01;07;35;12 - 01;07;37;10
Speaker 3
Right? Yeah. Let's build a snowman.

01;07;37;12 - 01;07;45;14
Speaker 2
And, you know, now that now that we we just put it that way. I mean, I think that's what, Swan Swan song. That's funny. Swan song.

01;07;45;14 - 01;07;46;08
Speaker 4
Yeah.

01;07;46;10 - 01;08;15;27
Speaker 2
But his song about Let's Build a snowman, it's actually not just completely irreverent, it's there's actually it is about. Yeah. Like, there's always going to be pain. There's always going to be things going wrong, but like, make something, you know, go create something, go make a funny video or, you know, pick up your guitar and write a song or, you know, the, and yes, throughout my life, you know, my sense of humor and music, you know, that's that's, those are the two things those have been my, you know.

01;08;16;00 - 01;08;16;12
Speaker 4
Yeah.

01;08;16;12 - 01;08;19;20
Speaker 2
On day one, God's like, I'm going to give you these two things and that's good.

01;08;19;23 - 01;08;20;04
Speaker 3


01;08;20;05 - 01;08;20;23
Speaker 2
Keep you safe.

01;08;20;23 - 01;08;23;25
Speaker 4
And this is such a great combo of both of those things.

01;08;23;25 - 01;08;26;02
Speaker 2
Exactly, exactly. Yeah.

01;08;26;04 - 01;08;31;20
Speaker 4
And and not to mention the, the horror aspect of it which you've always been prone to as well.

01;08;31;20 - 01;08;32;24
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

01;08;32;24 - 01;08;42;25
Speaker 4
You know people's getting access to the face and you know being in their tongue ripped out. Yeah. All that stuff. I mean there definitely is that element of it as well.

01;08;43;02 - 01;09;03;22
Speaker 2
It's so crazy. When I was that winter first of all, I want to mention I wanted to bring this up because I know that, but, you know, I was I've been watching The Simpsons, you know, for the past few years. I've been, starting from the beginning. Just growing up. So by episode. But the other day, I watched the episode where Bart shoplift, bones.

01;09;03;26 - 01;09;04;19
Speaker 2
Right.

01;09;04;22 - 01;09;05;11
Speaker 4
Of course. Yeah.

01;09;05;17 - 01;09;06;17
Speaker 2
Catfish.

01;09;06;19 - 01;09;08;25
Speaker 3
And,

01;09;08;28 - 01;09;09;17
Speaker 2
But,

01;09;09;19 - 01;09;10;06
Speaker 4
Just to.

01;09;10;08 - 01;09;13;21
Speaker 3
Get.

01;09;13;23 - 01;09;49;15
Speaker 2
As I was watching that episode, and Bart's, like, walking through, wintery Springfield, I had this, like, really uneasy feeling, and I was like, what? What is it? And then I had to take a second to, like, kind of tune. I was like, why am I feeling so like it was just like a depressed kind of feeling was like, oh, that's how you know that that was my winter, that year of feeling that like, you know, because that show that episodes about him disappointing his mother and, you know, if your age and and and but I, I remember that winter for some reason I was in the loop maybe I was applying for

01;09;49;15 - 01;09;56;23
Speaker 2
jobs, but it was it was nighttime and they were having an evening mass, so I mentioned, you know, the devil, you know my mom, right?

01;09;56;23 - 01;09;57;06
Speaker 4
Right. Yeah.

01;09;57;10 - 01;10;11;07
Speaker 2
Raised us Catholic. And, but I decided to go into the mass, and, I remember the, the priest or the father or whatever you want to call him. He was talking. He was delivering a sermon on the Book of Job. Are you familiar with that story?

01;10;11;13 - 01;10;36;08
Speaker 4
Yeah, yeah. And you know what? I actually was thinking about this. That Alfred Packer is kind of like. Yeah, the book of job. Like he is job like everything. Everything terrible befalls him. Like. Yes. Uses his horse. It uses all of his friends. He gets, you know, persecuted. Yeah. He gets unfairly hung, you know, like, yeah, I that's so funny.

01;10;36;08 - 01;10;39;27
Speaker 4
You said that because I was thinking, and it's yesterday.

01;10;39;29 - 01;11;14;05
Speaker 2
Yeah. So. And that's the things that the preacher was, he was going into it. And I swear to God he was like really embellishing the more gory details because there's a part in the book of job where the devil is, is telling God like, yeah, well, he still has his health. So then God gives him all these like, disgusting boils and there's a the part in the story where, like, job, like cuts open the boils and like, you know, takes a knife to his skin and the blood and the, you know, and and I've in my memory and again, I was like, kind of starving and like whacked out.

01;11;14;07 - 01;11;18;26
Speaker 2
But I swear the priest was like, really getting really into, like, just the gory.

01;11;18;26 - 01;11;19;22
Speaker 4
The horror of it.

01;11;19;22 - 01;11;21;02
Speaker 3
Yeah.

01;11;21;05 - 01;11;33;29
Speaker 2
And I think that's, that's it's been a theme of my life, you know, the, the have not shied away from the, the horror or horrendous gory details of life, you know.

01;11;34;03 - 01;11;34;26
Speaker 3
Yeah.

01;11;34;28 - 01;11;42;20
Speaker 2
So I want to start wrapping up, but is there anything, anything else, any, any reflections you have that.

01;11;42;23 - 01;12;03;03
Speaker 4
Well, I just want to say thank you for opening up so much. I mean, it's, I mean, as, as a friend for almost 20 years to kind of hear the details of this, you know, horrible time in your life. You know, I just feel so privileged to be your friend. I think that you're just, like, such an incredible person.

01;12;03;05 - 01;12;44;04
Speaker 4
And that, you know, you've gone through a lot. And, you know, I just feel so lucky that we met each other when we did. And, you know, you know, I hope that, you know, I just I don't know when you say that, like, I, like, turn you on to drugs and alcohol. And then my everything came crashing down like, I, I hope I didn't have any, part of, like, that, crisis, you know, like, I don't know, I, I feel a little bit of guilt because I, I was very I was very like, I was probably the most confident I've ever been in my life going into college.

01;12;44;06 - 01;13;10;26
Speaker 4
Yeah. It's like, you know, I had, like, a really secure relationship. I was like, you know, coming out of, like, being the lead singer of a band, you know, like that, like senior year of high school was like my confidence peak, you know, I was just like, I had I had everything going for me, and I, I felt maybe I was a little too oblivious to what was going on in your life.

01;13;10;28 - 01;13;21;29
Speaker 4
So, I mean, I just I hope I was a good friend during that, that time to you in that like, I like I didn't do anything to exacerbate your issues.

01;13;22;01 - 01;13;22;09
Speaker 3


01;13;22;16 - 01;13;38;04
Speaker 4
I, I, I don't know, I mean I guess you know, I, I know that we have a great relationship but I just, I guess when I think about what was going on with you at that time and that I was so oblivious, I, I do like hold a little guilt about that.

01;13;38;09 - 01;13;39;20
Speaker 3
Well,

01;13;39;22 - 01;13;53;24
Speaker 2
I really appreciate you sharing that. And, the. Yeah, I mean, I guess the first thing I would say is, like, I've, I've never once had a thought of. I can't believe Austin, you know.

01;13;53;27 - 01;13;55;02
Speaker 3
Was it's.

01;13;55;05 - 01;13;58;21
Speaker 2
You know, 100% who you were during that time. You know, it was.

01;13;58;21 - 01;13;59;25
Speaker 4
Yeah. Yeah.

01;13;59;28 - 01;14;24;13
Speaker 2
Absolutely. What happened would have happened no matter where I was in the world, you know, like like these were patterns. These were emotional wounds that were going to take over no matter what, you know, and maybe the drugs and alcohol kind of the sped it up, you know, and in the end, you know, I think the point of all this is that I'm I am grateful for everything I've been through, you know, it's it's like it's.

01;14;24;16 - 01;14;25;10
Speaker 3
It's.

01;14;25;12 - 01;15;03;06
Speaker 2
Really that was like my rock bottom in so many ways. And it's like sometimes you have to hit rock bottom if the things that are driving you are unhealthy, you know, but, you know, beyond that, what I would say is that, like I said, like being your friend has always brought me like, you've you've been the Simpsons to to me, you know, like like you like like, you know, if, if we want to entertain the idea of there being you know, some, some God or creator, then then, you know, it's like you were a piece of art that was created.

01;15;03;06 - 01;15;04;07
Speaker 4
For,

01;15;04;09 - 01;15;23;15
Speaker 2
For me to come through and enjoy and, and, you know, it's I've laughed harder with you than I ever had with anyone, you know? And that's such incredible medicine, you know, and, and, you know, I think a big moral of the story is we were kids, we were 18 years old, and, you know, and.

01;15;23;17 - 01;15;24;26
Speaker 3
Yeah, we.

01;15;24;29 - 01;15;27;20
Speaker 2
18 year olds don't know shit, you know?

01;15;27;20 - 01;15;28;12
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah.

01;15;28;15 - 01;15;39;17
Speaker 2
It's true and it's true. Yeah. And you were, No. You've always been a great friend. You've always been very, attentive, in my opinion.

01;15;39;21 - 01;15;41;27
Speaker 3
And,

01;15;41;29 - 01;16;11;09
Speaker 4
Well, I also just amazed at, you know, how much you were able to give back when, while you were in crisis as well. Because I just remember you as being, like, super empathetic, always there to listen, always there to joke around and have fun. Play music like you never pushed your problems on other people, which I think is like really hard to do when you have like such inner turmoil.

01;16;11;12 - 01;16;18;19
Speaker 4
Yeah. And you know, maybe that maybe, maybe you should have, you know, maybe, you know, looking back, you know, maybe.

01;16;18;21 - 01;16;19;22
Speaker 3
Yeah.

01;16;19;24 - 01;16;23;10
Speaker 4
It would have it would have helped you to, to be a little bit more open.

01;16;23;10 - 01;16;24;08
Speaker 2
Big time to.

01;16;24;08 - 01;16;47;16
Speaker 4
Those things. But I think that also the fact that you were able to give so much back as a friend during that time of crisis just says a lot about your character. And just like what a great person you are, because it's like you just want to like, be you just you don't you don't want to drag anybody else down.

01;16;47;19 - 01;17;09;14
Speaker 4
It feels like it's like you just you just want to be a light. You just want to, like, be a positive force in people's life. Which I just think is such a great part of who you are. And I think that that's still, still what you do. I mean, like, that's basically what you've turned your profession into. And, and so, I mean, I just yeah, I just I admire you for that.

01;17;09;14 - 01;17;17;18
Speaker 4
And I think that, that it's a really it's a great, you know, trait to have and and. Yeah. I love you for it.

01;17;17;20 - 01;17;24;06
Speaker 2
I love you too. I mean, infinitely. I mean, this is we're soulmates in so many ways, you know?

01;17;24;11 - 01;17;26;08
Speaker 4
Yeah, absolutely.

01;17;26;10 - 01;17;32;08
Speaker 2
And I'd be remiss not to mention how much an angel Joanna was as well.

01;17;32;09 - 01;17;32;24
Speaker 4
Oh, yeah.

01;17;32;24 - 01;17;42;11
Speaker 2
She was just such. And her and I really connected. We really bonded over those. Yeah. You know, she she was. I could tell she saw.

01;17;42;11 - 01;18;03;14
Speaker 4
I think she saw what was going on. Yeah. I seem to remember being like, I'm worried about Justin and like Justin, he's fine. We talked about it, you know, it's like. Yeah, it's like, didn't you see him just like, laying grown on, like, the top bunk, staring at the ceiling for like three hours. I was like, yeah, but he just does that.

01;18;03;14 - 01;18;08;04
Speaker 3
That's just that's normal. Yeah.

01;18;08;07 - 01;18;21;14
Speaker 4
But yeah, I do have like a pretty vivid memory of, like coming up, coming home from the dorms and you literally just laying flat on your back and just like staring straight up at me, just being like, hey, what's going on? You're just like.

01;18;21;17 - 01;18;22;12
Speaker 3
Hey.

01;18;22;15 - 01;18;31;17
Speaker 4
You know? And then when I think back on, like, the signs that I should have seen, it's like, I am I. That image comes to my head,

01;18;31;19 - 01;18;33;07
Speaker 2
Man, that's that's haunting.

01;18;33;13 - 01;18;34;09
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah.

01;18;34;13 - 01;18;42;04
Speaker 2
I hope just that my wish for you is to really let that all go as best as you can. You know, it's like I.

01;18;42;08 - 01;18;42;26
Speaker 3
Yeah.

01;18;42;29 - 01;18;47;05
Speaker 2
Again. You're young, we were young and I'm good, you know, like.

01;18;47;09 - 01;18;48;01
Speaker 4
Yeah, yeah.

01;18;48;03 - 01;18;57;18
Speaker 2
I march through those flames and I, I, I was always destined to be okay. You know?

01;18;57;20 - 01;18;58;03
Speaker 3
Yeah.

01;18;58;08 - 01;19;09;23
Speaker 2
And and. Yeah, I think that's been one of my bigger challenges in life is, is letting people and, you know, letting letting people see those parts of myself, you know, I what a.

01;19;09;23 - 01;19;11;11
Speaker 4
Huge step this podcast is.

01;19;11;11 - 01;19;31;29
Speaker 2
And totally, totally. I think that's kind of like course correction for me, you know? Because, yeah, I think a big reason I never opened up was because I just to so much shame, you know, just like nobody, nobody should see this, you know, this is, this is an abject failure that lives in me, you know?

01;19;32;03 - 01;19;32;23
Speaker 3
Yeah.

01;19;32;25 - 01;19;39;25
Speaker 2
And and that's our shame, you know, has so much power is by being so secretive, you know?

01;19;40;00 - 01;19;40;26
Speaker 3
Yeah. That's how.

01;19;40;26 - 01;19;42;08
Speaker 4
It manifests.

01;19;42;10 - 01;19;43;14
Speaker 3
Yeah.

01;19;43;16 - 01;19;49;05
Speaker 4
One last thing I'd like to say. Just since this is your first episode. Yeah. And just to get it on the record.

01;19;49;10 - 01;19;50;07
Speaker 2
Yeah.

01;19;50;09 - 01;19;58;14
Speaker 4
What? Where do you see this podcast going? What do you want it to do for people like, what do you what do you. Where do you see this going?

01;19;58;16 - 01;20;05;23
Speaker 2
Yeah, I really love that question. Well, for me, the big.

01;20;05;25 - 01;20;10;07
Speaker 3
The the biggest.

01;20;10;10 - 01;20;41;04
Speaker 2
Path to healing for me has been self-forgiveness has been self-compassion. That that is, I would say, of all things that we talk about culturally, even in mental health, like, like that is something that I think most people are very bereft and deficient in, in self-compassion, you know, and I know that when we tell our stories and maybe we have someone there to show us, you know, a different perspective than the one we've been holding.

01;20;41;04 - 01;20;46;15
Speaker 2
You know, it's healing happens when our hearts kind of break for ourselves, when we go like.

01;20;46;15 - 01;20;46;29
Speaker 3
Oh.

01;20;46;29 - 01;21;07;07
Speaker 2
Man, like I just at the end of the day, it's like I just needed a hug. I just needed some love, you know? So so that, you know, is a big I want, you know, to, to I want this podcast to be a teacher of, of how we all just need compassion, how that was the only thing we needed as well.

01;21;07;07 - 01;21;30;02
Speaker 2
I want to get to know people, you know, it's like, I want to. There's so many people in my life who I don't know these stories, you know, it's like they it's it's a secret to them, too. Or maybe they've got a few people in their lives who know the stories, but, like, I want I want to create that atmosphere of, we we all have nothing to hide, basically.

01;21;30;05 - 01;21;42;20
Speaker 2
You know, that that shame, doesn't need to bind us anymore. You know, that we can be seen and and all of our humanity. And, just the levity that comes from, you know.

01;21;42;23 - 01;21;43;17
Speaker 3
Yeah.

01;21;43;20 - 01;22;04;09
Speaker 2
And of course, lastly, I just want to emphasize, how our souls or our hearts or maybe even our subconscious makes choices for us that our conscious mind may not be aware of. Right? Like, why why do we pick the pieces of art that we do? And why does it resonate with us? You know, I don't think we ever fully understand why.

01;22;04;09 - 01;22;09;22
Speaker 2
It's just some something deep within us is is struck by, you know.

01;22;09;24 - 01;22;25;27
Speaker 4
Yeah. And trying to unpack that. Totally. I mean, yeah, yeah. I mean, I feel like I see a lot more in cannibal now, especially where you where you were at and how that movie helped you through or maybe processed some things for you.

01;22;25;27 - 01;22;28;01
Speaker 3
Yeah.

01;22;28;03 - 01;22;34;11
Speaker 4
Yeah. I mean, it's well, I wish you luck. And I think that is going to be great.

01;22;34;13 - 01;22;34;21
Speaker 2
Yeah.

01;22;34;21 - 01;22;43;19
Speaker 4
And, I love it, I love you, and, go get them.

01;22;43;21 - 01;22;44;25
Speaker 2
Yes. Go get.

01;22;44;25 - 01;22;47;14
Speaker 3
Em.

01;22;47;16 - 01;22;49;11
Speaker 4
Go make it snow, man.

01;22;49;14 - 01;22;50;16
Speaker 3
Yeah.

01;22;50;19 - 01;23;00;27
Speaker 2
Okay, so we're we're going to wrap up, and before we do, Austin, I just want to give you a chance to plug your podcast. Can can you tell the listeners a little bit about what that's all about.

01;23;01;00 - 01;23;02;15
Speaker 3
For our.

01;23;02;15 - 01;23;31;08
Speaker 4
Podcast, me and my cousin Zach, we have a podcast which you've been on a couple times. That's right. Some of our greatest episodes, actually, a tease of our Patreon episode is coming out tomorrow on 911. I never forget and yeah, so the podcast called filmed with family. It's me and my cousin Zach we bring on, are really good friends or usually our family just to talk about a movie.

01;23;31;08 - 01;23;34;03
Speaker 3
And it's a good time.

01;23;34;05 - 01;23;52;26
Speaker 4
We, we kind of are able to use the films, much like you're doing, like using the art to go into deeper subjects, talk about our family history stories that we never knew about our family members, and it's a great time.

01;23;52;28 - 01;23;54;18
Speaker 3
Yeah. Check it out.

01;23;54;20 - 01;24;06;07
Speaker 2
It's a wonderful podcast. It's it's definitely, one I listen to as much as I can when I'm not listening to Carmen O'Brien.

01;24;06;09 - 01;24;06;25
Speaker 3
Yeah.

01;24;06;27 - 01;24;12;08
Speaker 4
Well, thanks for listening and being on the show.

01;24;12;11 - 01;24;15;04
Speaker 3
And being a guest.

01;24;15;06 - 01;24;39;05
Speaker 1
Sometimes the world is black. And tears running from your eyes. And maybe we'll all get really sick. And maybe we'll all the. So.

01;24;39;05 - 01;24;55;00
Unknown
Oh, let's build a snowman. We can become our best friends. And in the long run we can. Then we can make him tall. We can make him not so tall. Snowman. Don't have a happy face.

01;24;55;00 - 01;24;58;24
Speaker 1
Happy smile. Happy point of you. If you build me a snowman.

01;24;58;26 - 01;25;03;28
Unknown
Then don't build up or down. So let's build a snowman. We can make him our best friend.

01;25;04;00 - 01;25;13;08
Speaker 1
We can make them pop. Or we can name him better. We can make him tall. We can make him not so doll, snowman.

01;25;13;11 - 01;25;17;16
Speaker 3
He.

01;25;17;19 - 01;25;30;15
Unknown
Come on. Come on. 000.

01;25;30;18 - 01;25;36;15
Unknown
He's happy. Smiling. Happy point of you. You could be completely nuts. Are you.

01;25;36;18 - 01;25;41;02
Speaker 1
Snowman? Snowman? Snowmen?